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FDP Forum / Performer's Corner / Play both acoustic and electric...
(This message was last edited by kevinpenguin at 10:56 PM, Jun 16th, 2010)
FDP Forum / Performer's Corner / Play both acoustic and electric...
kevinpenguin
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Brookfield, ILJun 16th, 2010 10:38 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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I'm the rhythm guitar player for a country/rock/rockabilly band. We do Johnny Cash to Elvis to and even current stuff real twangy. I player 2/3 of the time acoustic and the other time electric.
I need something better than lugging a 2x12 modeling vox amp with built in effects, and a separate 1x12 acoustic crate amp.
Any tips? How would you do it? I'd love to go direct for my main sound and just use one box for my stage monitoring sound.
On a typical gig I cover acoustic guitar (majority), mandolin, a little electric dobro, electric guitar and keys.
How would you set it up? I'm ok with "built in" effects for amps - I don't care about solid state or tubes at this point - I don't want to break my back during setup - I want to focus on playing (singing) and networking for my band.
Thanks in advance for your ideas!
Tonally for electric stuff - I like a little reverb, slap back echo, and clean amp tones. Not too much overdrive or distortion - not that I don't want that option.
1. First idea
I'm thinking along the lines of a preamp that can do both acoustic and electric sounds, and a tech 21 power engine 60 2x12 (40 pounds ish). Which preamp?
2. Other options....
Dadical
Contributing Member
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I am not a complete
idiot - I have several pieces missing!Jun 16th, 2010 11:28 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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Boss GT multi-fx has acoustic patches for playing acoustic guitars into a guitar amp. It also has more standard effects than you'll ever use.
Play acoustic, switch guitars and step on a patch pedal. Switch back - one step. It's perfect for what you're doing. I've done exactly the same thing.
I recommend a medium to high power clean amp to keep the acoustic right.
A used GT-3 can probably be found for maybe a hundred bucks - maybe less.
BbendFender
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Texas
It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian!Jun 17th, 2010 04:50 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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Heck, just plug your acoustic into your Vox modeling amp and get after it. It should sould ok. I know an electric sounds good through the Vox.
KD2
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USA / TX
KDakaWaltJun 17th, 2010 08:44 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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When I do it I just take the acoustic direct. I usually have a monitor. Without the monitor, I would have an A/B and run into whatever amp I had as my monitor. I would still send the acoustic direct to the board. I use a Red-Eye on the acoustic. I use it on banjo too. The A/B lets me take it out when I'm playing the electric. Some people complain of pickup loading using an A/B, but I have not had that problem.
Vic Vega
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Massachusetts
Happy to be at the top of the food chainJun 18th, 2010 08:46 AM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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"Heck, just plug your acoustic into your Vox modeling amp and get after it. It should sould ok."
I doubt it would sound anything close to OK, unless you don't care that it doesn't sound like an acoustic guitar.
Twangmeister
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Playing passably
for over 50 years!Jun 18th, 2010 10:35 AM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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I use an Acoustic Image Ten2. Very hifi like a good acoustic guitar amp. It has notch and cut filtering which helps reduce feedbackwith acoustic guitars. I use an EQ pedal to get a more traditional electric guitar sound on the other channel. Also is an excellent compact electric and upright bass amp at 28 lbs.
The big drawback is the price.
gravydb
Contributing Member
PAJun 18th, 2010 10:50 AM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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Keep your electric rig as-is, and go direct to the board with your acoustic. That's the right way to do it, and it'll sound great.
SecondHoneymoon
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South CarolinaJun 18th, 2010 11:19 AM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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"Keep your electric rig as-is, and go direct to the board with your acoustic. That's the right way to do it, and it'll sound great." +1
That's what I do. I see no need for an acoustic amp if you have a monitor (which is essential IMO).
Take it a step further and get a POD of some sort for your electric and do away with the electric amp. That is my goal. I've bought the POD but haven't programmed it yet to my liking. I'll grant you it doesn't sound quite as good as my Blues Deluxe tube amp, but it also doesn't weigh 40+lbs and takes up about 10% of the space in the car. For the 3-4 songs I play electric on I think it will work fine.
Fritz_D_Cat
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better living
through chemistry!Jun 18th, 2010 12:04 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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"Keep your electric rig as-is, and go direct to the board with your acoustic. That's the right way to do it, and it'll sound great."
make that +2 - never ever heard an acoustic sound any better through an amp than a PA.
Vic Vega
Contributing Member
******
Massachusetts
Happy to be at the top of the food chainJun 18th, 2010 12:53 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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Yep. I go into a volume pedal, DI box, and into the PA with my acoustic. My electric goes into my pedal board and then to an amp, whcih may or may not be mic'ed, depending on the venue.
kevinpenguin
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Brookfield, ILJun 19th, 2010 08:16 AM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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The reason why I need an acoustic amp is because I use it to monitor along with our stage monitors. We have a bar band PA setup. If I bought a powered monitor just to monitor my own stuff - I could get away using the PA, but we're just too loud.
I'm thinking about getting a Tonelab LE and just going both direct and use my existing acoustic amp.
I do go direct for my mains sound acoustic wise already. I have a great DI.
jbryan
USJul 26th, 2010 12:59 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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Hey Kevin, not sure I understand why you still need an acoustic amp. i am +3- I also play electric, acoustic, and keys. I DI both the keys and my acoustic. I need my own monitor mix as I also sing, so I need vox, other vocalists vox in my mix, plus my keys and the acoustic. I don't put my electric amp through as the amp is it's own monitor. Your powered monitor will work fine- just add your acoustic guitar to the mix off the board along with the vocals. It will work great and lots less to haul around. That's why my keyboard amp is sitting around gathering dust. I guess it's our backup "bass amp" if our bassist ever blew up his LOL.
FatTeleTom
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Evanston, ILJul 26th, 2010 01:50 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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"Keep your electric rig as-is, and go direct to the board with your acoustic. That's the right way to do it, and it'll sound great."
That's what I do. Bummer that you need an additional monitor, but I do understand. We usually only have a single monitor mix for the whole band, and sometimes it's a tough balance between having the acoustic loud enough in the monitors for me to play well, while not having it be too much for the bandmates.
If you must have your own monitor, I'd suggest a full-range flat-response monitor amp (keyboard amp might work, not sure if most acoustic guitar amps are flat-response enough?).
Run both acoustics and electrics into a modeler (like the Tonelab you mentioned), using different patches settings as needed.
I use a Radial Tone PZ-Pre DI (linked below, although I got mine at a cheaper price) as my acoustic DI.
It's got 2 inputs, an effects loop, two XLR outs (one pre-EQ, one post-EQ), another line out, and a tuner out. If I were to take the "electric and acoustic direct" approach (and I've thought about it) that flexibility would serve me well.
For example, if I didn't need any effects for the acoustic, I'd run
1) The electric into my Vox Tonelab ST for amp/cab modelling, into one of the inputs on the PZ.
2) The acoustic into the other input.
3) Tuner in the tuner-out jack. Any shared effects in the loop.
Depending on the PA setup, I could use
1) one XLR as an out to my full-range monitor, and 2) the other XLR to the PA.
Or, I could send
1) The post-EQ XLR out to the PA as the acoustic signal (my acoustic pickup needs a big mid-scoop), and
2) The the pre-EQ XLR out to the PA as the electric signal (the Tonelab would handle tone/EQ).
3) The line output to my full-range monitor.
The sound guy would then be able to apply his own EQ or effects separately to each signal.
I think the caveat here is that going direct with your electric signal requires some trial and error , and experience at gig volumes, to get the tones right. But lots of folks are doing it that way.
FatTeleTom
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Evanston, ILJul 26th, 2010 01:59 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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PS. My band has an outdoor gig in downtown Chicago this week. If I wasn't bringing an amp and assorted supplies (Standback amp stand, spare tubes and fuses, ets), I could just take the el train down carrying an electric, an acoustic, and my pedalboard bag. Soooo tempting.
Tony Wright
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Stillwater, OK
Built for comfort, not for speed.Jul 26th, 2010 04:09 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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OK...can I assume you have a serious GAS attack?
Or are the band mates complaining about your sound?
Or are you getting tired of playing "roadie"?
===============
"...I'd love to go direct for my main sound and just use one box for my stage monitoring sound."
We can help you get there, but you have to think outside your current concept. Ready?
=====================
You said: "The reason why I need an acoustic amp is because I use it to monitor along with our stage monitors. We have a bar band PA setup. If I bought a powered monitor just to monitor my own stuff - I could get away using the PA, but we're just too loud."
Do you use the acoustic amp for your acoustic guitar and the keyboards come through the PA monitor along with your vocal?
Do you need the acoustic amp to help with your acoustic volume because the band is just too loud?
It seems to me that you have a lot of instruments and you need to hear each one independently. That means a lot of changes to the sound. Right? Why not get a sub mixer for your own "on stage mixer and monitor control"?
1 Acoustic/electric;
2 Mandolin;
3 Electric guitar;
4 Dobro;
5 Keys
I suggest you get a six channel mixer (room to grow) and that you get a powered monitor. (Get a good one...your choice of the quality brands such as QSC, JBL, Mackie...there was a close out on the JBL PRX512M...the new, more powerful PRX612M is now on the market)
Run everything through your board. Get a sub mixer that has built in digital signal processing (Effects like reverb, etc).
Now set the Pan or the Balance control on your sub mixer to stright up, dead center. Equal sound in Left and Right. Send the Left signal to the snake or the Band PA. Send the Right signal to the self powered monitor for your own sound.
Do your own sound check. Get the levels set for you to hear you. Let the band PA soundman set the level coming from your mixer to blend with the band's overall sound to the audience. Remember, you go screwing with faders and tone and such, you are messing with the soundman and the audience sound as well as your own sound. Get it like you want it and don't touch it again.
I have a hunch that by the third or fourth gig, you will have your sound pretty well locked down just like the guy who bought a new guitar amp.
It is pretty simple at this point...
Put the band monitor on one side of you with the vocals in it. Put YOUR monitor on the other side of you and you can hear your own playing. Pretty much just like having ONE amp behind you for the instrument and one monitor in front for the vocals.
(NOTE: You might find that with acoustic instruments, you prefer to put the instrument monitor "behind" you like an amp...no problem.)
Now you can get that Tonelab and any other pedals or effects or enhancements and put them into your own signal path...but it all comes out of one speaker for you to hear on stage.
TRY it first...buy or borrow a mixer and plug it into the mains AND into your current acoustic guitar amp. After all, an acoustic amp is similar to a self powered speaker.
I saw some black TV trays at WalMart and Lowes...or buy a wooden one and paint it black (song title alert) and just set the mixer on it behind you to keep the cables and clutter out of your way.
kevinpenguin
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Brookfield, ILJul 27th, 2010 07:33 AM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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All good ideas... I appreciate the responses.
I've been using the acoustic amp as the monitor for keys and acoustic for a while now, it works, but in addition to a 60 pound 2x12 amp and multiple instruments, it's just too much stuff. I don't enjoy that.
I'll give the separate mixer/monitor a try sometime soon. I'm a little concerned with that method - but it's worth a shot. We don't have a dedicated sound guy all the time. Most of the time we just mix on stage for ourselves. If we had a sound guy, I'd just go direct.
Nobody is complaining about my sound, but I want setup to be easier. (If I was a lead player, I'd want an amp for tone purposes, but just a rhythm guy). If I could put together a grouping of instrument cables, to the mixer, and just connect quickly, that would be great. I don't like not talking to the audience or bar owner, etc.
I'm not the guy who sets up and just drinks, I like to keep everyone else on track too. Haven't been able to do that with the current gear.
I don't really have gas, I just want a setup that is flexible, works well with any situation, and I like being prepared. I don't want to have any equipment issues at any time.
Thanks for all the suggestions!
jbryan
USJul 29th, 2010 12:32 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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We don't have a sound guy (unless the club has a PA and an engineer) and I still DI my keys and acoustic. It's really easy and sounds great. Did it last night for a gig at Champp's outside! It's really the right way to do it. Our monitors are 15" with Compression Drivers so they more than handle the keyboards. I might be concerned with only 12" monitors. In fact, our monitors sound better than when we are in a club with a PA and a soundman!! Seriously.
Stratotron
USAJul 29th, 2010 01:53 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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Into the chat after lunch.
I use the POD X3L, which has 2 seperate assignable instrument inputs, and has an XLR for a Vocal Mic. I write seperate patches for electric and acoustic. For acoustic, I shut down the amp modeling,run compressor, some type of modulation or another and whatever delay works for that song, sometimes nothing. For the sake of clarity, I pre program the patches, so by stepping on one switch, it changes the system globally, in other words not tap dancing on stomp boxes to change everything.
The X3 runs an XLR direct to the board and 1/4" to a 50 watt solid state, solid back Marshall, tilted back in front of me, aimed at my head. Depending on what I need, I can stand slightly off center, or step right in to the focus of the speaker.
The X3 allows me to switch guitars and tap a switch and I am good to go.
I used to carry 2 amps and 2 systems, this is way easier. I will add however that the acoustic sound doesn't come anywhere near my Acoustisonic Jr. amp.which I will NEVER sell!
A friend of mine has a Rivera Sedona, and apparently too much dinero!
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