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FDP Forum / The 'Pup' Tent / Rewind recommendations ?

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Peegoo
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The spotlight

looks like a prison break
Apr 2nd, 2017 10:07 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

^^^Yes.

You can plug a cable into the guitar and use your meter on the end of the cable.

Just make sure to select the pickup under test with the guitar's selector switch, and dime the controls.

If you want to get closer to the pickups' true resistance, first Ohm the cable (use a short one). Then test the pickups.

Subtract the cable's Ohms reading from each pickup's Ohms reading and that will be really close.

ejm

usa

Apr 3rd, 2017 09:55 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Peegoo: No offense, but it's not necessary to do the cable resistance thing. Not unless you have a bad cable, which is another science project, and in which case you shouldn't be using it anyway.

The pickup should be in the greater than 5 Kohm range. The cable should be in the range of 5 ohms at the very worst. This difference is 0.1% and you're not going to be able to measure it accurately.

So you are left with the resistance of the pickup in parallel with the pot(s). Generally, you should only be able to see the resistance of one pot (the volume control). You won't see the resistance of the tone pot, because it will have a capacitor somewhere between the "main" signal line and ground, which will prohibit your measuring any DC resistance.

The pot resistance will probably be about 250 Kohms for single coil guitars. In the case of a humbucker guitar it will be about 500 Kohms.

Worst case, with a 5 Kohm pickup in parallel with a 250 Kohm pot, the error is 2.0%. In this case, with a 5 Kohm pickup, you'd have an error of 100 ohms. IMO, not enough to bother with. Note that this is including the error of the value of the pot as well.

In summation, the cable resistance error and the parallel pot error are probably beyond your ability to measure in this setup. If you want to start unsoldering things to chase down a few missing ohms, have fun.

As was said, it is important to have the controls up full. If you connect it up, and gradually turn the volume control down, you will see the reading go to zero ohms.

If both of your pickups are the same model, you should see the same reading for each one individually. If you set the selector switch to both on, the reading will be half since both pickups are in parallel.

Note that we are assuming that there is no funny business going on like capacitors in series with the signal path. I have seen a couple cases, namely some Rickenbacker basses, that have this and can throw you for a loop. In those cases, you need to "adjust" your methodology.

Also, your guitar must be passive, with no preamps or the like.


ejm

usa

Apr 3rd, 2017 10:08 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Also, to take a different approach to rewinding.............

I'd vote no.

Even though this guitar probably doesn't have any insane vintage mojo pricing like a 59 LP or whatever, it does have some or may at some point have some collectibility.

For the cost of rewinding, I think that you'd get more bang for your buck by just doing some research and getting a set of new replacement pups that are to your liking.

And before you do any of that, I'd make sure that there is actually something wrong first, and then finding out exactly what it is. There may not be anything wrong at all. Maybe your "vision" of this guitar did not live up to its reality. (I've had that happen.)

If you really want to do the rewind thing, I see from your tag that you're in the Boston area. There should be a few reputable shops in the area that can give you some advice.

And by the way: Really NICE looking guitar.


Hammond101
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So. Cal. USA

Apr 3rd, 2017 02:30 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

After some measuring and to answer your original question, I'd recommend Jason Lollar for rewind. You may only need one PU rewound possibly none if they are swapped in the guitar.

Jason has always done fine PU work for me whether a six string PU od something custom for a lap steel I was building.

Lollar PUs

Peegoo
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The spotlight

looks like a prison break
Apr 3rd, 2017 02:36 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

No offense taken.

It's always good to measure the cable when measuring anything through it. You have to rule out as many things as possible.

ejm

usa

Apr 3rd, 2017 04:21 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

If someone is leery of the cable they're using, they can simply try another cable. That should do it. Notice I said *should*; You could have more than one bad cable, which means it's time to step back and reassess your whole set up.

And if you are really paranoid about a cable, you can also use a bare plug inserted into the guitar, measuring across the tip and sleeve.

Also, back to the OP.........

Reading closer, it appears that there are two issues.
1) Balance between the pickups (meaning just one could be bad).
2) Overall tonality. THAT could be a number of things, none related to the guitar.
The user, amp, cable(s), any effects, and so on......


JJuran
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Boston Area

Apr 3rd, 2017 09:09 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Thanks Hammond, Peegoo, and ejm. Here are the DC resistance readings measured with just a bare plug in the jack measuring across tip and sleeve, volume controls wide open.

Neck = 8.04K
Bridge = 8.09K

No surprises here at all. No significant difference at all. Nothing is "bad" or broken or mis-asssembled. I already know that. And the readings just confirm my suspicion that Yamaha, like many other manufacturers during the early-mid 80's didn't compensate the pickups for the lesser string vibration at the bridge. I've owned and played SGs and Les Pauls in the 80's where the bridge p/up just didn't have the output the neck had. Neck p/ups lowered as far as they can go, bridge poles nearly touching the strings before any kind of balance was attained. It wasn't impossible to balance their output, they just didn't come from the factory well balanced at all back then. These days of course, not the case. All pickup sets these days get some kind of quasi-"calibration" to help them balance more readily after installation and initial setup. That's really just winding the bridge more than the neck by about 1K.

I'd be surprised if Seymour Duncan or Jason Lollar advised against a rewind on these p/ups. That's why I wanted to hear from players who have actually had factory p/ups rewound and were they happy with the results or not.

gdw3

LA-la-land, CA

Insert clever comment here
Apr 4th, 2017 12:42 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Why go to the trouble? Why not just keep the ones you have, for collectible sake, and get a new set? I can't imagine re-winding is much (if any) of a cost savings....

Viera
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Santee CA

Poser extraordinaire
Apr 4th, 2017 01:31 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Replacement pups would look odd on that guitar unless they were factory "aged". Could be a reason for the rewind inquiry by the OP?

JJuran
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Boston Area

Apr 4th, 2017 04:45 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Yes Viera - it is one of the reasons for the inquiry. That, and the 3-screw mounting. New bezels are flat on the bottom. Would be cutting and sanding them to fit the arch top of the guitar. Moreover, I wouldn't be surprised if the 4 bezel mounting holes didn't line up precisely with the holes already in the body. I need to check that.

One option would be Duncan Antiquities but those are $300 street price for the set. Then there's the shaping of the bezels to the archtop. I'm pretty sure I can rewind the originals at about $60 per coil, total about $240. I think that's what Lindy Fralin charges for rewinds.

For now I've got the balance issue almost corrected. It will never be where I want it. I'll keep playing for a while.

Cal-Woody

USA/California

Why do I keep fixing things that work?
Apr 4th, 2017 05:28 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

For replacing the pickup bezels, you can use the half-pencil method like I do to determine the slot depth on replacing the nut.
Just drop down your pickups and fasten the new bezel (one at a time) in place, then put some low tack painters tape and scribe the new profile onto the outside of your bezel and file/grind to the shape needed. The bezel closest to the neck will be similar to the profile of the side toward the center, but may be a little shallower because of the body shape.
It's just time consuming but can be done easily.
Just a thought.....
Woody

Stratmanx
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Memphis, TN

Apr 5th, 2017 01:36 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

If your still wanting more, my go to guy is Lindy Fralin.

I've sent him at least a 1/2 dozen pickups that were either open, or needed to be "made correct again".

He's recently made right a set of Gibson T-Tops I experimented from my 70's LP. I butchered a long time ago. defense, that was decades ago and I was just learning the craft.

Lindy's great to work with and will talk guitars and pickups with you like the guy next door.

Great work, and a great shop.



Lindy Fralin - Repairs and Rewinds

(This message was last edited by Stratmanx at 04:02 PM, Apr 29th, 2017)

ejm

usa

Apr 5th, 2017 04:06 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Stratmanx wrote:

"He's done a set of Gibson T-Tops I pulled from my 1974 Les Paul a long time ago and decided to wire them for coil splitting and tapping, and really did a crap job of it."

Since it sounds like you are a Lindy fan, I assume that YOU are the one who did the "crap job" and NOT Lindy Fralin.

When I first read this it sounded like Lindy was the bad guy.

If I am correct, I'd suggest that you go back and re-edit your post (typing a retraction will not fix the previous post if you leave it untouched), so others that might read it in the future do not get the wrong impression.


stratcowboy
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USA/Taos, NM

Apr 5th, 2017 07:15 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

That's what I was thinking...

Stratmanx
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Memphis, TN

Apr 29th, 2017 01:58 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

OH SH#% !!!

Gotta correct that NOW !



Stratmanx
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Memphis, TN

Apr 29th, 2017 02:46 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Correction done.

Oh boy, I've got to proof read 10X in the future.

And then maybe one more.



stratcowboy
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USA/Taos, NM

Apr 29th, 2017 05:58 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

You're not alone. I wish many on the FDP (and lots of places on the web), would proofread what they write. Not just for content, but for spelling and grammar, too.

But, hey...it's the 21st century--just press the "send" button. LOL!

Leftee
Contributing Member
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VA

Apr 30th, 2017 05:05 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I'm the worst!

JJuran
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Boston Area

Apr 30th, 2017 09:19 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

So I've got the pickups out to the custom shop at Seymour Duncan. $95 each for rewinding to Seth Lover specs.

New antiquities would have gone $300.

The tone control pots have the push/push switch on them for coil splitting. One fell apart on me as I was removing the harness. The other wasn't switching reliably. So those got replaced on the harness with new mallory caps. While I have the harness on a board, I replaced the volume pots as well with new CTS. The p/up selector is in good shape after a quick cleaning with Deoxit so that stays. Same for the input jack.

I'll need to ream the control pot holes to .375" for all 4 controls. I have a peghead reamer, but that's going to bottom out before it cuts anything.

P/ups should be back in a couple weeks.

Will report back with the results.

JJuran
Contributing Member
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Boston Area

Jul 13th, 2017 11:45 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

So it took a couple of months to get these pickups rewound at Seymour Duncan. Got them back couple of weeks ago and have had them in the guitar for about a week now.

My SA2100 is back together with new pots and caps with these pickups. I love this guitar. It was a good guitar. It is now a great guitar.

The rewound pickups sound and perform a noticeable level above the originals. More sensitive to pick attack, articulate, punchy, and sweet tone on both. They adjust for balance quite easily as the neck is now wound to 7.85k and the bridge to 8.66k.

I'm really pleased. The project was worth the cost.

Some downside - I bought CTS pots and so the original control knobs don't fit. And the gold dial pointers don't fit over the shaft of the pots. Looks ok with Gibson style bell knobs, but lost a touch of originality which disappoints, but fades quickly when I play it. I'll find some after-market pointers and look for witch-hat knobs with "Volume" and "Tone" printed on them. That will get me back as close to original as I can get.

It took a while, but I've got other guitars to play. If this were my only guitar, I'd likely have gone with gold antiquities and call it a day.

Anyway, for those contemplating similar, be aware of the delay in getting the rewinds done and the limited number of places to get it done. But for a fraction of the price, I've got the original SA2500 pickups rewound to perform just like a high-end humbucker.

Note - the guitar is an SA2100 but the pickups are stamped "SA2500."

(This message was last edited by JJuran at 01:03 PM, Jul 17th, 2017)

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FDP Forum / The 'Pup' Tent / Rewind recommendations ?




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