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FDP Forum / Miscellaneous and Non-Fender Topics / PA system for Music Room

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BlondeStrat
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Las Vegas NV

Can't complain but sometimes I still do
Jul 30th, 2017 01:42 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I'm learning a bit about what I will need to amplify vocals in the music room. Whatever I do I will be starting from scratch. I don't think I own anything that will be helpful at this time.

What I am hoping to have is a decent, but fairly simple system for use exclusively in my music room.

Note: Same room (300 sq. ft. 15' X 21') as discussed in my other thread regarding studio monitor speakers for computer playback. Thanks for the help on getting that one figured out.

Keeping in mind I am not looking for a system that can be taken out to any other venue.

I see it can be done with active or passive speaker systems. I assume I'll need a mixing board of some sort?

I have searched the net a bit, but figure folks here on the FDP may have some more helpful first hand input.

I'm not looking for the simplest way to *just get by* and I'm also not looking for super high end.

This application will be more like amplifying vocals in your practice/rehearsal room.

Any advice appreciated.



One article I found linked below.

VoiceCouncilâs Guide to Buying a PA System

Tony Wright
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Stillwater, OK

I never met a calorie I didn't like.
Jul 30th, 2017 02:51 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

You still have the same issues as live venue performers. So, let's make sure how you plan to set the entire rehearsal-jam-recording-etc performance up and what YOU think everyone needs.

Should we assume there will be enough individual instrument amplifiers? Multiple guitar amps...bass amp...keyboard amp?

Are you planning on each instrument amplified by its own "stage amp" or "instrument amp" except for vocals and drums?

Never going to have unamplified, true acoustic instruments? Such as violin/fiddle, mandolin, horns, keyboard direct into the system?

Here is where I am headed, like "touring pro bands" and that includes a lot of club bands that leave Austin, KCMO, DFW, etc on a Tuesday morning and start their work week performing 8-12 hours away playing a small town venue for gas money, then proceed to the next larger town on Wednesday.

For example let's use Austin band plays OKC or even Wichita Tuesday...then drives on to Lincoln or Omaha or Des Moines for Wednesday, then they start south to KCMO for Thursday, Springfield Mo or Tulsa for Friday, maybe Shreveport for Saturday and home Sunday by noon.

THOSE bands carry their own monitor mixer. When I was doing club gigs the culb I worked for most of 05-06 was one of the "gas money stops" for a lot of "new" projects trying to get better known in college age communities.

Hang on, I have a point...

I realize you are NOT taking this system on the road for club gigs...but EVERYONE in the room will want to hear T?HEIR OWN VOICE and some will need support for their true acoustic instrument.

We have all been in bands where we cue of each other's stage sound levels. I have a bass riff that comes in right after your guitar fill...so when you get to "that specific note" I start my riff...perfect! So I need to hear your guitar and you need to hear my bass but we also need to hear the guitar amps.

By using a mixer that is intended to strictly be a monitor mixer...you can send each musician what they NEED to hear for their own slice of the pie.

Most conventional mixers (especially powered mixers, mixers with internal power amp for the speakers) have to be fairly large just to get four monitor mixes. Typically a 16 channel board from one of the better quality manufacturer.

I have linked one such mixer below (linked thru the FPD ad above this thread.) These are available used. Basically, you can create up to 12 monitor mixes or six stereo monitor mixes (different signals send to each ear or to two different wedges.)

Yeah, I know, that is probably overkill, but it needs to be asked. You have put a lot of money into your music room. Ask yourself if it will be a success if only half the people leave happy with their monitor wedge...

If you want to have a live sound that each person is happy with...individual monitors with individual mixes. "Live At Daryl's House" TV shows have a wonderful sound on the soundtrack but that is not what those musicians hear...they hear what they would hear on stage at any large concert venue.

You need to decide how far down that rabbit hole you want to go. It would be just as simple to "make do" with a conventional 16 channel mixer with four monitor mixes (such as the analog Allen and Heath Mix Wiz available in 12, 14, and 16 channel versions in "the original series" or the WZ2, WZ3, and the newest WZ4 model. Yamaha has plenty of mixers that would support most of the same features. Behringer's X32, XR18Air and a host of other digital mixers can provide all those same features.

I propose you think first about the mixer and then consider the quantity of monitors AND whether you want passive speakers with power amps or if you want active/powered speaker cabinets.

To get started, if there is NO "audience" listening location in your music room, I would not worry about "mains and subwoofers" and I would simply make sure I had the right "monitor cabinets" for the individual musicians.

ELECTRICAL CONCERNS: Regardless of brand name for powered monitors, at my day job, we simply assume that FOUR powered/active cabinets completely pull ALL the Watts/Amps/energy out of one 20 Amp circuit breaker. If you do the math, you might feel confident enough to put five or even six powered monitors on the same 20 Amp circuit. Quite the "buzz kill" when the breaker trips in the middle of a song.

We use the same basic math for individual power amps for instruments.

I assume you know, but for the other readers, the WATTS your amp produces is NOT the amount of WATTS it CONSUMES FROM THE WALL CURRENT. A Fender Blues Jr III produces "15 Watts of music power" while it consumes 180 Watts of 120v/60Hz of wall current.

Similar numbers for powered mixers, passive mixers, power amps for passive speakers and also for active or powered speakers.

For our line of work (we produce live music events and theater events) we err on the side of caution.

Your venue, your rules.

That said, I am sure you built your music room with the realization that you needed multiple breakers...I seem to recall that discussed in a thread "when building the room".

The less expensive option is probably to buy a 16 channel board with four monitor mixes. Brand name is your choice.

Both of my last two bands have rehearsed at my home. We have used my Mackie ProFX mixers (ProFX12 or ProFX16) and we used a single monitor mix...low volume, two singers, sometimes the drummer joined in on harmony/backing vocals.

All instruments thru their own "stage amp" and vocals with harmonica thru the monitors. LOW volume. Most next door neighbors never realized I was hosting band rehearsals. Typically we used two powered 1x12 with horn, 1000 Watt JBL monitors. LOW volume. Current band goes direct thru the mixer to the SINGLE Yamaha DBR10 powered speaker. We play mostly LOW volume gigs like small house parties, patio/deck gigs, nursing home, coffee shop volume.

You need to make your own decisions...and if you have specific questions, dozens of us will jump in.

FDP sponsor Sweetwater listing for Crest X18R monitor mixer

Tony Wright
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Stillwater, OK

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Jul 30th, 2017 04:11 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Now I will get more specific:

We all have preferences, so let me start with mine:

I am NOT tech savvy with computers, thus I dislike digital mixers and tend to prefer analog style mixers. I am "lazy" so I like mixers that have everything included (effects processors for reverb, delay, echo, etc. graphic EQ for mains out and subgroups if needed).

Mixer manufacturer's LIE TO YOU! Shocking, I know, but it is true. They count every individual input source as a channel. From this point forward, when I say "Channel" I am referring to a "channel strip" that has input methods, gain, parametric EQ, monitor mix controls, effects, pan or balance, fader and such.

For the record, MY personal Mackie ProFX12 has six channels with faders and XLR input jacks. The ProFX12 has four channels with XLR and one 1/4 input, it also has two channels with XLR and two "stereo" 1/4 input; AND there are two channels that each has two 1/4 stereo inputs AND two RCA style stereo inputs. BUT IT ONLY HAS EIGHT FADERS. You can call it what you want, but I call it an 8 channel mixer with a single monitor send along with internal EFX and Graphic EQ. Small format passive analog mixer. I love its size for our three piece at those small house party things we do. We take in one or two speakers to serve as main AND monitor for our small ensemble. We can hear everything since we put the speaker on the floor, deck or ground, standing upright, facing the audience...parallel to our shoulders, thus we can hear it without exposing our vocal mics for feedback AND the audience can hear it. Yes, I play electric bass thru that speaker.

What speaker? Typically these days, I am into "weight management"...smaller and lighter is better. I take a single Yamaha DBR-10 powered speaker. For an audience of around 25-50 we can get by with one cabinet carrying acoustic/electric guitar, bass and two vocals...occasionally our Cajon player will be miced up as well.

I have a monthly concert series at a local art gallery featuring singer/songwriters playing their own original music (acoustic/electric guitars, some Ukuleles, a Dobro once and a spinet piano when needed.) For that, I take the ProFX16.

The Mackie ProFX16 has 8 channels with XLR and 1/4. It also has four of those 8 channels with single knob control for compression, a nice feature. The ProFX16 also plays the "numbers game" featuring two channels with XLR and two stereo 1/4 inputs AND two more channels with two 1/4 stereo pair inputs and two RCA inputs. In addition, the ProFX16 has two monitor mixes and four Group outputs with faders. With adapters, I can make the ProFX12 support eight XLR inputs and the ProFX16 can support twelve XLR inputs with adapters.

That monthly singer songwriter gig gets two Yamaha DBR-10 speakers, set up exactly like I do for my own band. REDUCES feedback after sound check.

With that background out of the way...my employer uses the Presonus Studio Live 16.4.2 digital mixer (we have two) and we have one Behringer XR18Air "rack mount" digital mixer (requires an iPad for the control surface.) The Behringer XR18 Desk Top Mixer is basically the same as the XR18Air built into a desk top digital mixer so you do not have to have an iPad connected. Both Behringer can be purchased individually for under $600. BOTH BEHRINGER XR18 chassis have SIX MONITOR OUTPUTS. SIX monitor outputs lets you give six performers their own private monitor mix.

If you believe that you will REGULARLY have six or more people who REQUIRE their own custom monitor mix...start looking for those more expensive mixers.

For MY money, I no longer accept gigs that expect 3 or more monitor mixes. I simply do not own a mixer capable of 3 or more monitor mixes, nor can I mix more than 12 sources. (Truth be told, I could take a ProFX12 and plug the Left and Right into channel 15/16 on the ProFX16. That permits the remaining 23 channels of input signal to go out via the two monitor mixes.

For YOU...XR18Air would give you 16 input channels with every feature that is on the big boy X32.

For speakers?

I would opt for the speakers I currently own and love, the Yamaha DBR-10. I would probably want the DBR-15 for bass or drummer or keyboards.

Alternative speakers? I like the JBL EON610; EON612 and the EON615. For your music room, MAYBE one EON618.

In an effort to be transparent, I am not positive that the EON is better than the DBR and vice versa. Personal preference and cost factors rule my decision. I might pursue the QSC K-12v2 and the K10v2 if money was not a factor.

If I needed to save money, I might consider the powered Alto cabinets...I owned some 12s and some 15s...PLENTY good for my needs at the time.

I prefer the powered speakers as there is no confusion about the power rating at what Ohm divided by the area code plus the zip code times Pi.

If you plan to buy DI boxes and mics for instrument input...USED Shure SM57 for any instrument amp or horns or lots of other sources but I also like the Audix I-5 and the Sennheiser e609. For a budget condenser mic, I like the MXL 990 for a large diaphragm and the Audix F15 for a "pencil" condenser mic. For direct boxes, I like my SansAmp Bass Driver DI for bass, but use a Whirlwind IMP 2 most of the time for EVERYTHING needing a DI. I have been known to use ROLLS direct boxes. Ampeg makes a good bass DI these days. For budget prices, the Live Wire makes several decently priced models that seem to hold up well. Typically, I buy during Stupid Deal sales.

Vocal mics that I prefer are the standard Shure SM58 and the Sennheiser e835.

Drum micing? INDOORS? In a music room where any recording is simply to show you how bad you are playing? Or is this a coveted invitation and the recording is a collectable item....? Personally, I would mic a drum kit in a "rehearsal music room" with no more than 4 mics: Shure Beta 52 OR the Audix D-6; for snare and high hats and mounted toms and floor toms? Well, "I" would probably make do with two overhead Audix F15 condenser mics. One directly over the high hats and snare, kind of aimed at the small mounted tom. I would repeat that "make one catch several sources" by having one more overhead Audix F15 condenser mic aimed from above the floor tom towards the larger mounted tom. CYMBALS WIIL BLEED INTO EVERY OPEN MIC IN THE MUSIC ROOM...with the possible exception of the high hats.

Done.



BlondeStrat
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Las Vegas NV

Can't complain but sometimes I still do
Jul 30th, 2017 04:45 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Well Tony, I said I was learning about this subject.

Thank you for the vast amount of information!

It's a lot for an inexperienced guy like me to digest, but I can see that it's all important to the subject. And most of all it's important to get a grip on it before I go spending money on critical components.

I'll have to read it about five times over to get it all sorted out in my head. ;)

I appreciate the time and detail you put into this.

here is what I think I can offer as a start at sorting things out a bit: .....

As for the most basic aspect of *electrical power*. I have two circuits to the room and can fetch power from additional circuits pretty easily if it ever comes to that.

Generally speaking the (musician positions) I have provided for in the room are: Bass, Drums, Two Guitars, Keys. More could be crowded in, but space would start becoming a concern at some point shortly beyond that. These are all set with individual amps.

I'd probably like to insure I have capability to involve three, maybe four vocalists. I can also see (as you mention) there being need for some acoustic instrument access at times ... but certainly limited.

What I am talking about above is *performance* situations, not so much *recording*. I realize recording could involve more capacity than performance.

(This message was last edited by BlondeStrat at 08:04 PM, Jul 30th, 2017)

Mick Reid
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Jul 30th, 2017 07:12 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Hey Blonde,
What kind of budget are you realistically looking at to not "...*just get by* and I'm also not looking for super high end" ?

There are probably plenty that would disagree with me, but I still think that Behringer PA gear is good value for money. Yes, it may not be first choice if taking it "on the road" but you've established that's not going to happen.

For the most basic set up, you could go with one of their 12 channel mixers and two 12" powered speakers.
The mixers have decent on-board FX for reverbs/delays etc and the 12" powered speakers are 345w each (RMS, 550 peak) and have surprisingly good bottom end. (I own a pair of B212D and one B210D)


BlondeStrat
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Las Vegas NV

Can't complain but sometimes I still do
Jul 30th, 2017 08:45 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"What kind of budget are you realistically looking at to not "...*just get by* and I'm also not looking for super high end" ?"

Well, if this makes any sense ...

I don't know.

This truly is a case of, *I don't know what I don't know*

Especially after reading Tony's post I am on a fact finding mission to determine what sort of equipment I might need and the range in cost of such equipment.

I will be setting myself up for some basic recording, so I need microphones for that no matter what and without regard to a PA for the room.

Definitely need to learn more and try to make certain that whatever I do/purchase I get it right the first time ... to the extent possible.

Peegoo
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Jul 30th, 2017 11:45 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Another really good option for your music room is three passive 10" floor monitors and the boxtop mixer in the link below.

This little powered PA mixer is what I use when I run sound for our local jams.

It is ridiculously small, super powerful, 15 lbs, and takes up about the same table-top space as a shoe box. On-board effects too.

Made in the USA.

Tony Wright
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Stillwater, OK

I never met a calorie I didn't like.
Jul 30th, 2017 11:51 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Edited for spelling and to add reply about Peegoo's post.

Mick is right about one thing...the very simple approach is a pair of speaker (perhaps a couple more in your case...let's see....

AND regarding Peegoo's suggestion...that will certainly work. I have a friend who used an older model of the Carvin 12 channel powered mixer for around 10 years as she toured playing listening rooms, coffee shops, small saloons, and venues of all types. She had two monitors and two mains and each component probably weighed as much as she did. Still, it was a good sounding system when she finally retired the system and went lighter weight. YOUR system does not need to "travel" light like hers.

And now the rest of my message:

Keyboard probably needs to go direct into the PA and not into a "stage/instrument amp" since few people provide keyboard amps.

Bass...depends on whether you bought a bass amp or expect your bass player to provide his own. Simplest is DI into PA and then have some decent "low frequency speakers" on his monitor mix. (It would not have to include a subwoofer.)

For the most part, I get the impression that you plan to just use the PA for vocals and "as needed" for other sources like keys, bass, the rare harmonica or sax or acoustic/electric guitar.

Am I getting close?

So, this is like a jam room/rehearsal hall...place where your buddies can come over for a cool beverage to escape the Nevada heat and put down some chops as you get ready for a gig, or simply play for the love of playing.

Any closer?

Forget about half of what I said in the first response, too techy for your actual intent if I am closer in this one.

Primarily vocals. Probably try to keep the instrument amp volumes at a level so that they do not need to be miced thru the PA in order to be heard by the other musicians...BUT also, don't play so loud that they obscure another musician's instrument amp.

So, now the question becomes much more simple...

Can the musicians who are also vocalists...and any non musicians who sing...all play nice enough with each other than you can get by with two monitor mixes with two wedges on each mix?

One monitor for Keys, one for bass and drums, one for the guitarists...and a fourth for that "non musician singer" or it could be for the second guitarist.

But you are limited to two monitor mixes unless you have a non singing drummer (and/or bass player).

For example, you could get a mixer like the Mackie ProFX16 which has plenty of inputs for the vocals and keys and any necessary non amplified instruments that may rear their ugly head in the future. More importantly, the ProFX15 has two monitor mixes. You could give one mix to the primary singer...the secondary singer could get the second monitor mix.

Since MY version has the keys only in the PA, then you could feed a little of the keys into Aux 1 and 2 (monitor mixess 1 and 2). You could also feed the left main out to a monitor shared by the drummer and bass player.

Keep in mind that a speaker (passive thru a power amp OR active/powered speaker with an internal power amp) does not KNOW that it is a main speaker or a monitor speaker...it just does its job which is simply reinforce the signal that is sent to that speaker.

Keep in mind that the mixer has no idea that you are not using it to send sound to an audience of dozens/hundreds/thousands of adoring fans. The mixer's job is to simply take the signal that you put into the different channels and adjust the tone/EQ as you decide, add a little EFX ('verb, chorus, echo???) and then route it to the output you want the signal to go to as it goes on to be heard by those adoring fans.

THUS, you can use the Left and Right main outputs to be pretty much anything you want them to be.

IF you are familiar with the operation of Sub Groups, the ProFX16 has 4 sub groups and you could use those for level controls in some cases, depending on how you wanted to connect things.

NOTE: "I" like the Mackie ProFX16. It is stupid simple for an analog guy like me. IF you have a favorite mixer, substitute that mixer's name and model when you read my shameless plug for the Mackie.

I also like the price of the Mackie ProFX16. ($450ish; you can save buying used or Open Box.)

Guitar Center dot com/used has two for $300 each and one for around $400 so feel free to check the market locally (CL) and other locales for the ProFX16 OR YOUR FAVORITE mixer.

If you opt for a powered mixer with passive speakers, consider the Yamaha EMX5016CF which has two monitor mixes and two internal EFX (you can run two different effects at the same time to the same channel or to different channels. Nice powered mixer for $1000 NEW. You can save buying used AND you will save buying passive speakers new or used compared to buying new or used powered speakers. You can assign the EMX5016CF in three modes for the internal power amps: 1: Stereo Left/Right Mains only (passive for monitor signal); 2: Mono Main (main speakers on the same internal power amp) AND the second amp powers Monitor Mix 1 (Typically one or two 8 Ohm monitors on that second amp for "monitor mix 1"). and finally, 3: You can push the switch that configures the mixer and its power amps to split one monitor mix on one internal power amp and a second monitor mix on the second internal power amp.

There is always the option of adding additional power amps and speakers OR adding powered speakers. I can't see that being productive in your intended application...Assuming I have correctly deciphered your plans...(jam/rehearsal/planned entertainment for your friends???)

The only question that "I" have that has not been answered is "Will there be an 'audience' in the Music Room during the 'performance'?" If so, will they be seated out front just like at a club or concert venue? OR is this more like Darryl's House where the band just gets in a circle and the guests and friends find a spot on the outside and sometimes in the big middle of things to enjoy the music? "I" do not really need an answer to that...but answer it for yourself because...

If you have to send sound to an audience (people who have an expectation of hearing a somewhat polished performance) then you need speakers facing those audience/guests/friends so they too can hear the music with vocals and non amplified instruments at the levels of the instrument stage amps.

ELECTRICAL: 2 guitar amps, 1 bass amp, 1 or 2 keyboards thru the PA...easily all handled on one 20 amp circuit.

4 monitors (say something like the JBL EON610 or the Yamaha DBR-10...up to something like the QSC K-10 or K-12, Eon612 and at least one Eon615 for the bass player/drummer's monitor) AND a mixer such as the ProFX16 should fit on a 20 Amp circuit breaker with NO problems.

The speakers I suggested are speakers I would buy for small gigs or for home rehearsal or sound for hire. The quality is decent and they are available on the used market.

I forget the dimensions of your music room, but I suspect...STRONGLY suspect that the room is small enough that the drums UN AMPLIFIED are certainly LOUD ENOUGH to all the musicians and vocalists "on stage" to hear, thus I do not believe you need to purchase drum mics unless you plan to take this sound system on the road at some point...and then you may not NEED drum mics.

Likewise, I suspect that the various instruments with stage amplifiers (guitar amp/bass amp) are probably loud enough that they do NOT require being reinforced thru the PA.

The more you put into the PA, the more it will cost and the louder it will become.

NEW prices:

ProFX16 mixer or your preferred alternative mixer...(around) $500...new.
three JBL EON615 (bass/drum monitor AND two mains for audience)...new 3x$500 each...new.
three DBR-10 OR three EON610...new 3x$400 each...new.

As for getting the system fully functional...
around 5 Shure SM58 and or 3 or 4 of the Sennheiser e835 new 3 pack $250...new.

Add 1 or 2 of the Sennheiser e609 new $110 each...new.

Maybe 3 or 4 Shure SM57 for "who knows" (horns, guitar amps, vocals, Leslie cabinet horn close mic, one mic on either side of the drum kit? new 3x$75...new.

4 Whirlwind IMP 2 DI boxes. new. 4x$50...new.

And several 20ft, 30ft and 50ft Rapco Horizon mic cable.

When I place an order for a spread of sizes, I buy six 20ft Rapco Horizon standard XLR mic cable. I usually buy two 30ft for every six of the 20ft...and I usually pick up one 50ft for every order of six 20 and two 30 and add the one 50ft.

ALSO, I keep a couple of each "6 to 10ft long cable with TWO "tip/ring/sleeve" 1/4 inch male plug on one end AND with a 3.5mm TRS (tip/ring/sleeve) male plug on the other end...good for mp3 or iPad/iPhone or other such digital sources. AND I also tend to keep one cable with two RCA male to RCA male stereo plugs for older technology plugs.

I am out of words...I have a 0730 job in the morning. g'nite.

(This message was last edited by Tony Wright at 01:58 AM, Jul 31st, 2017)

Peegoo
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Jul 31st, 2017 12:06 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

The Shures Tony mentions are tried and true.

I've been using Electrovoice ND967 mics for years because they are set and forget; they reject feedback better than any other mic I've used. In a small room, feedback can be a real problem if things get loud.

These mics are ruggedly built. In the 15+ years I've been using them only one has gone down for service.

Another mic tip: always have a foam on every vocal mic, because mics get really scungy from people slobbering on 'em. It's dead easy to toss the foams into a sink full of hot soapy water and squeeze 'em out, rather that disassemble the mic screens and scrub them.

Shop around; you can find these for less than $150 new.

davywhizz
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Jul 31st, 2017 05:26 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Our music room is almost exactly the same size and we've used it for band rehearsals for over 12 years. So far the PA has been the one we've also taken out on smaller gigs, mostly weddings, but I'm not sure I would do it much differently for a fixed rehearsal set up. We've learned a lot, especially about stopping feedback and maximising the floor space. This is the current set up and some tips:
We have a 16 channel Mackie mixer in a rack case with space for rack effects below. For rehearsals, the case sits on top of the powered sub-woofer, which makes the mixer and effects a good height for making adjustments and only takes up one bit of floorspace.
There are two Db Technologies powered speakers on stands, similar spec to the Mackie SRM450s we've used in the past.
We use smaller Mackie SRM350s as wedge monitors and put them on guitar combo/monitor stands so they are angled back at 45 degrees and off the floor. Most of us sit down to rehearse so it puts the monitors at a good height so you need less volume.
In the mixer rack is a vocal effects unit, compressor and three graphic equalisers. One stereo for the main PA and two mono for two different monitor feeds. I think these are crucial to controlling feedback but...
...the main cause of feedback is where you put everything. 300 square feet sounds big, but it's hard to place everything and everybody so that the vocal mics are not picking up signal from the main speakers or monitors and creating a feedback loop.
Vocal mics are Shure SM58s, slowly being upgraded to Beta 87As.
The drums are on a mat, just to protect the carpet, and as far as possible from any vocal mics. Though we've managed with a singing drummer in the past.
Keyboards go direct to the mixer via a DI box and are heard through the main PA and one of the monitor mixes. Same for any acoustic instruments with their own pickups, otherwise through a vocal mic.
We tend to keep vocal reverb on a lower setting in the room than we would live.
We've had to accept that vocal monitors that are loud enough to hear might not necessarily sound exactly how we'd want them to. It may be a compromise of volume versus quality as you cut the frequencies that cause the feedback.
Currently all mic and other cables run round the outside of the room in a safe but untidy sort of way. If we were to have a permanent rehearsal set-up I'd probably go for a stage box or two and short multi-cores to tidy it all up. When we designed the room we put in more than enough amperage (if that's the word) and more than the average number of electric power points, then fitted triple sockets as standard at each outlet (most in the UK have only one or two sockets). So plugging stuff in anywhere in the room is easy, though it's always surprising how many plugs you end up with.
It's also surprising how you run out of floor space when you get some mic stands, speaker stands, music stands, guitar stands, monitor stands, keys stands.... in the room. We put guitars in a rack rather than on individual stands.
We have a couple of the smaller TC Electronics Voicesolo personal monitors. One version fits onto a boom mic stand with the mic sitting above. We haven't used them in rehearsals for a long time, but it's an option and there are other types of mic stand mounted monitors out there.
We don't put electric guitar or bass into the PA, though it's also an option and we do at gigs.

(This message was last edited by davywhizz at 09:01 AM, Jul 31st, 2017)

Tony Wright
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I never met a calorie I didn't like.
Jul 31st, 2017 06:20 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

One last observation...
I am rather opinionated about brand names and models. IGNORE THAT if you like a different brand or if someone else has a suggestion that you think fits your needs better. My opinion is just that, mine...and it is just that, an opinion, not an iron clad "fact".

If I suggest a specific mixer or speaker, go look at the specifications...speaker size, horn size, power rating, Maximum SPL output measured in Decibles, frequency RESPONSE not just Frequency Range. Just because a speaker "can" reach certain frequencies does not mean it will reach that frequency due to cabinet design.

If you have used Brand X speakers and you liked them, that does not mean that MY opinion beats your experience.

Buy within your budget.

Buy brand names that YOU have experience with and trust.

There are a lot of brands and models out there that I have not had a chance to use or even hear in person. About 15 years ago, I seriously avoided Mackie. Now I am an owner of 3 Mackie mixers currently. I bought one and gave it to my son for fund raisers at his wife's school. (she teaches at a small town high school; Junior class sponsor...that means prom and fund raising for the class of xxxx "legacy gift to the school".)

I am also the guy who said NO PLASTIC SPEAKERS and my current favorites are all plastic boxes.

So buy your own brands, just look at the specs of the stuff I like and see if you can find something similar in your favorite brand name.

After all, this ain't serious like a crazy ruler trying to shoot missiles at us. This is music. That is far more important than missiles...

jhawkr
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Wichita, KS USA

It's all gravy from here on...
Jul 31st, 2017 06:47 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I also have A Mackie ProFX12 board. I use EV 15" 2 way speakers and a couple QSC amps, dbx PA2 Driverack, and a couple other gizmos mounted in a roadcase style rack. The dbx "listens" for feedback and automatically attenuates offending frequencies. You have to have modem access but you can control it with an iPhone/iPad. Way too far after the fact, but if I had it to do over again, I'd buy powered speakers. Just one less thing...

My PA has never left my basement but could do a decent sized bar gig with a 4-5 piece band easily.

BlondeStrat
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Las Vegas NV

Can't complain but sometimes I still do
Jul 31st, 2017 10:09 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I notice the Mackie ProFX12 is pretty affordable ... not that low price is my primary concern here.

I think I need to throw in a side question here. This thread was not intended to be so much about *recording*, but ... how does this mixer play into the recording process?

I had been looking at the focusrite interface for recording. Does this stuff change what I would need on the recording front?

Hammond101
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So. Cal. USA

Jul 31st, 2017 10:13 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Wow, this has to be confusing. Kiss program. Keep it as simple as possible. For years I used Mackie CFX16 and CFX20 mixers (*great btw)QSC amps and Yamaha speakers for both mains(subs too) and monitors. I dragged around a 100ft snake as well.

About 2 years ago I bought a Behringer XR18 wireless mixer. Since that time I haven't hauled a snake once. Yay! Yeah I know that name but this thing really works.

This thing has may different sides to its make up. 16 mic channels, stereo aux in and 8 aux outs allow a big band if needed. You can run 8 different monitor mixes. The built in wireless router is fine for small gathering and home use. Out of the house a carry a Linksys router for pro stability. You can mix from your cell phone a tablet or a laptop. I typically use a laptop. It makes a great recording mixer. The preamps are not as good as the Mackie's but sound great unless pushed beyond their limits with gain. FX are excellent and you can run up to four different FX at once. I you play with the same group all the time you can set up access for up to eight band members via a smart phone for their own monitor mix.

I'm in the process of getting rid of all my passive speakers and going with powered units. I'd recommend powered units if you purchase a non-powered mixer. Less room will be taken up in your studio room with power amps.

Recommendations? Actually a used CFX 16 would do very nicely and would not set you back much. You would be limited to 2 monitor mixes. Powered speaker/monitors would complete the deal. Mics, yes, the Shure stuff can't be beat. SM-58 for vocs and SM-57 for instruments.

You will be amazed at what you spend on cables to plug all this stuff together. Another reason for powered speakers. XLR (mic cables) for everything.

davywhizz
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Redesdale UK

"Still Alive And Well"
Jul 31st, 2017 10:42 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Our Mackie mixer is a CR1604 - VLZ. Quite old now but very reliable and highly recommended. It was a massive improvement on the Yamaha MG12 mixer we had before that, and that one was great for the price.

I've never done it, and don't even pretend to understand it, but you can also use the Mackie for recording. Basically the first 8 channels would be used as normal, for instrument and voice inputs, but the second 8 (9-16) control "track 1", "track 2" etc of your recording. The channel strips are labelled like that. Someone on FDP will know all about this and which other mixers can do the same.

jhawkr
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Wichita, KS USA

It's all gravy from here on...
Jul 31st, 2017 10:53 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

The ProFx line has a line out for your computer.

BlondeStrat
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Las Vegas NV

Can't complain but sometimes I still do
Jul 31st, 2017 12:58 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Would that "line out" mean I would not need the Focusrite interface in order to record?

Edited to add: sounds like davywhizz is indicating all I need the the mixer ... Assuming I pick the right one. ;)

(This message was last edited by BlondeStrat at 03:06 PM, Jul 31st, 2017)

jhawkr
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Wichita, KS USA

It's all gravy from here on...
Jul 31st, 2017 02:03 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

The Mackie can do recording to a DAW.

BlondeStrat
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Las Vegas NV

Can't complain but sometimes I still do
Jul 31st, 2017 02:23 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

DAW??

Peegoo
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The rain sounds like

a round of applause
Jul 31st, 2017 04:48 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Digital audio workstation.

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