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FDP Forum / Fender Amps: 1985 - Current / The new Tone Masters

Previous 20 Messages  
Te 52

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Jul 31st, 2019 04:06 PM   Edit   Profile  

"... I wonder why no Princeton offering in the series..."

I had the same thought, but aside from the smaller form factor and the 10 inch speaker, perhaps Fender figures that the built-in attenuator going down to 0.1 watts on the Deluxe makes a Tonemaster Princeton superfluous.

On another note, I wonder if Fender is considering head versions? Those would *really* be light weight.

Mick Reid
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Jul 31st, 2019 04:35 PM   Edit   Profile  

Thanks Te.
Good info. You can always be counted on to explain technical stuff that passes right over my head.
(or I'm just ignorant of...)


Joe Potts
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Western Pa.

I'm an old guitar hassler
Aug 5th, 2019 11:23 AM   Edit   Profile  

I had a Reverend Goblin 5/15 watt amp with a Neodymium speaker, and I thought it sounded great. I wouldn’t hesitate to have another amp with one in it.

Mick Reid
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Australia

American-made in Oz!!
Aug 8th, 2019 04:05 AM   Edit   Profile  

OK, seeking clarification on the Tone Master Deluxe power rating.

Is it 22w, or 100w???

From Fender product page:

"...faithfully modeling the circuitry and 22-watt power output of an original Deluxe tube amp. Using a high-performance 100-watt digital power amp to achieve the headroom and dynamic range of a real vintage Deluxe tube amp..."

Sweetwater specifically advertises it as a "Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb 100-watt Guitar Combo Amplifier"

The attenuator on the back of the amp shows the following settings: .2w / .5w / 1w / 5w / 12w / 22w.

Am I missing something???

Anyone got any insight on this?

------------------------------------------------

edit to add link and more copy from product page:

"Enjoy full, natural tone at almost any volume—from a full 22W of Fender power down to bedroom- and apartment-friendly 0.2W."

I beginning to think the retailers have misinterpreted something in Fender's new design.

External link

(This message was last edited by Mick Reid at 06:10 AM, Aug 8th, 2019)

swampyankee
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olde New England

If you can't play good, play loud
Aug 8th, 2019 05:40 AM   Edit   Profile  

I haven't looked too closely at them yet, but years ago I A/B'd my old s.s. Deluxe 112 with my DRRI and it was damn close as is. The D112 was near bulletproof and If I could've dialed out the ss peakyness the D112 would've been a fine gigging amp.
If they have been able to give the amp that tubey warmth, why not.

But why did they need to make them look like clones of the Deluxe and Twin? Remember the Deluxe VM? I think it failed in part due to peoples' expectation that it would be a Deluxe with benefits, which it wasn't.

BrentD
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Michigan

Aug 8th, 2019 08:38 AM   Edit   Profile  

Mick, I think the idea is that a 22w tube amp will gradually distort in a "pleasing" way as it approaches maximum output. I suspect Fender uses an over-specced power amp to make sure you're not bumping into the digital amp's limits. In other words, it's programmed to behave like a Deluxe Reverb even down to volume, and they used a power amp with enough extra juice that it isn't going to be the bottleneck.

littleuch
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Florida

Itchy finger on the outrage trigger
Aug 8th, 2019 08:48 AM   Edit   Profile  

That's my take^. That it requires 100 SS watts to approximate 22 tube watts. The visual labels just make us geezers feel better.

Te 52

Laws of Physics

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Aug 8th, 2019 10:55 AM   Edit   Profile  

Interesting points. Does it produce 22 watts of acoustic power or 100 watts? One way to know would be to look at the power rating of the speaker they put in. It's spec'ed as a Jensen N12K. There's no data on that model on the jensentone.com website, but Jensen seems to usually use the K suffix to denote a 100 watt rating.

(This message was last edited by Te 52 at 12:58 PM, Aug 8th, 2019)

BrentD
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Aug 8th, 2019 12:20 PM   Edit   Profile  

I don't know how accurate the speaker rating is because the C12K is the same for a DRRI. I'd bet Fender is shooting for close to C12K tone but with lighter weight. As a marketing strategy it makes the most sense to me to have it sound and act *just like* the tube version but without the glass and at half the weight. Every decision would probably have been made to that end, meaning the speaker tone would have to contribute to confusion in a blindfold test.

As for the amp, I think it produces 22 watts and it takes a bigger digital amp than that to make the 22 watts (an objective measure) behave like 22 "tube" watts (a subjective measure).

Mick Reid
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Australia

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Aug 8th, 2019 03:59 PM   Edit   Profile  

"...I suspect Fender uses an over-specced power amp to make sure you're not bumping into the digital amp's limits. In other words, it's programmed to behave like a Deluxe Reverb even down to volume, and they used a power amp with enough extra juice that it isn't going to be the bottleneck."

That's sort of what I suspected. I don't understand all the technical properties that goes into achieving this, but the word "headroom" in the product description, gave me a clue.

"Does it produce 22 watts of acoustic power or 100 watts?"

THAT, is exactly my question. Very unclear in the marketing.

"The visual labels just make us geezers feel better."

No... say it ain't so!!!


Te 52

Laws of Physics

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Aug 8th, 2019 05:52 PM   Edit   Profile  

"...I don't know how accurate the speaker rating is because the C12K is the same for a DRRI..."

You're right, I changed the speaker in my Deluxe, so I'd forgotten it comes with a 100 watt speaker even though it's a 22 watt amp.

Maybe a simpler question is "Does the Tonemaster Deluxe get LOUDER than a DRRI?"

Mick Reid
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Australia

American-made in Oz!!
Aug 8th, 2019 06:13 PM   Edit   Profile  

"Maybe a simpler question is "Does the Tonemaster Deluxe get LOUDER than a DRRI?""

I'm showing more of my ignorance here (you all should be use to that ;^) but isn't there some equation in electronics that basically distinguishes between "tube watts" and "solid state watts"?

ie: you need X number of SS watts to achieve Y number of tube watts. (or vice versa)

It never made sense to me. I just figured a watt is a watt. Dunno...


Mike DeTorrice
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USA

Aug 8th, 2019 09:14 PM   Edit   Profile  

Well, years ago, I recall many tube amps being rated at X watts RMS at 5% distortion, while transistor/solid-state amps might be X watts RMS at 1% (or less) distortion.

Of course, the onset of power-amp distortion and it's character seems more pleasing and acceptable to most guitarists compared to an apparent harsher and hard-clipping distortion when old style transistor type amps were pushed to their limits.

So, I think one of Fender's goals was to make sure the 22 watts in the Tone Master Deluxes would give the apparent sound of a tube Deluxe when at it's loudest.

littleuch
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Florida

Itchy finger on the outrage trigger
Aug 13th, 2019 08:25 AM   Edit   Profile  

I wonder how all these new gen SS amps will hold up over time, say, compared to an old Roland JC.

Peegoo
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Aug 13th, 2019 09:11 AM   Edit   Profile  

"Isn't there some equation in electronics that basically distinguishes between tube watts and solid state watts?"

There needs to be no distinction because watts are a measure of electric *power* (not sound volume) produced or consumed by a device--be it tubes or transistors.

I'm not an EE, so what I mention here is filtered through the rudimentary synapses of my monkey brain. Don't quote me on any of this, and please check my math.

There is no convention to relate wattage to apparent or actual volume of an amplifier; this is why the perceived volume (decibels from the speaker) of various amps with differing wattage ratings often swings wildly. The wattage rating is the electrical power drawn by the amplifier in operation.

It's similar to light bulbs, and I think this contributes to the confusion. A 100-watt bulb is not twice as bright as a 50-watt bulb. It's brighter because it consumes more wattage in operation. The brightness of the bulb is measured in lumens. LED lighting is super efficient compared to incandescent and fluorescent; this is why most LED bulbs and fixtures have a statement on the package similar to, "As bright as a 75-watt incandescent."

Back to amplifiers--I think everyone sticks with wattage ratings to indicate volume out of the speaker because that's the convention in the business. Applying statements such as "98dB @ 1 meter [etc.]" is neither accurate nor reliable because even if every manufacturer agreed that the dB rating is taken with the volume control at 50% (or whatever), there are different volume pots used in amps that affect the perceived volume. There's no easy way to quantify volume level. So makers use wattage consumed as the index. It's much simpler and really accurate.

Another metaphor that applies is an engine coupled to tires through a drive train. The wattage consumed by an amplifier is very similar to engine horsepower. That horsepower has to go through a transmission (the amp's output transformer) to the wheels (the speaker). The efficiency of these components translates to speed down the road or volume at your ears.

Apologies for the novel :o|

(This message was last edited by Peegoo at 11:17 AM, Aug 13th, 2019)

Peegoo
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Aug 13th, 2019 09:27 AM   Edit   Profile  

Also, Fender is contributing to the confusion by touting these amps as having "digital power amps" in their literature. This is inaccurate; the power amps are class-D (non-digital MOSFET controlled).

The "digital" is in the preamp portion of the circuit--in the DSP microprocessor.

BrentD
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Aug 13th, 2019 09:35 AM   Edit   Profile  

Peegoo, I have heard class D described as digital before. I assume it's because of their switching operation but I gather it's mostly just confusion.

Mick Reid
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Australia

American-made in Oz!!
Aug 13th, 2019 04:33 PM   Edit   Profile  

All good stuff there P. Thanks

The "digital power amp" thing had me scratching my head also. Even mot being an EE, I think it is the first time I've heard it used in that manner.

However I am pretty much a numpty, when it comes to this stuff.


Leftee
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VA

Aug 13th, 2019 05:35 PM   Edit   Profile  

When the marketing types get ahold of the product, anything can be called anything.

Sincerely,

The Class A Vox AC30

Peegoo
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Aug 13th, 2019 10:41 PM   Edit   Profile  

Very few class-D power amp designs do use digital control, but those are highly-specialized applications and not stuff you find in consumer electronics.

Previous 20 Messages  

FDP Forum / Fender Amps: 1985 - Current / The new Tone Masters




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